Ohio poised to approve concealed-carry law allowing guns in bars, restaurants and stadiums
Published: Sunday, May 22, 2011, 5:55 AM
By Reginald Fields, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer
COLUMBUS, Ohio — The Ohio legislature is on the verge of approving one of the country's most wide-reaching bills allowing concealed firearms in places that serve alcohol, including bars and stadiums.
Lawmakers who support the measure argue that Ohio is merely catching up to 42 other states that already allow concealed carry permit holders to tote their firearms in booze-pouring establishments. But that's not the whole story.
No two state laws are the same. Some allow it in restaurants but not bars. Others prohibit guns in stadiums. Some block firearms in nightclubs. Some states have no law addressing the issue at all, making it legal by default. Ohio's proposed statute, meanwhile, would allow concealed firearms everywhere alcohol could be sold and consumed, including shopping malls and museums.
Only four other states have a concealed carry law as sweeping as what has been proposed here, observers say. The proposal has placed Ohio in the crosshairs of a national debate that has moved from state to state as lawmakers try to determine just how far gun rights should extend into the public domain
What has resulted is a mixed bag of agreements across the country juxtaposing the rights of those who wish to carry a gun for self-defense against the rights of those who, for example, wish to dine with their families or take in a ballgame without a firearm legally hidden on the hip of a person one seat over.
"It definitely goes a lot further than other states," he said. "I would say it goes further also by including sport stadiums, which is a very radical idea."
But gun lobbying groups that helped write the bill said calling it a guns-in-bars proposal is a headline-grabbing catch phrase, but not at all what they ultimately intended.
The proposal would allow concealed carry in all Class D licensed liquor establishments, which includes restaurants, bars, stadiums, carryouts, clubs and other similar places.
"The reason we can't get away from it is because a liquor license is a liquor license," Garvas said. "I can't differentiate between a restaurant and bar in Ohio."
Indeed, while some states try to stipulate what constitutes a bar compared to a restaurant according to how much the establishment makes in food vs. alcohol sales, Ohio does not.
The Ohio Senate first passed Senate Bill 17. Then the Ohio House approved a similar bill, House Bill 45. According to House Speaker William G. Batchelder, a Medina Republican, lawmakers were expected to move one of the bills this past week but that didn't happen. Lawmakers apparently are working on a compromise, trying to settle on one bill to forward to the governor.
Lawmakers generally do not like to move bills that might get swatted down by the governor and in this case, Gov. John Kasich and his office have given conflicting signals regarding the Republican leader's position.
Batchelder told reporters earlier this month after HB 45 was approved that he spoke to Kasich and was certain the governor would sign the legislation into law. A Kasich spokesman confirmed the governor was likely to sign the proposal. But Kasich himself is non-committal.
"Well, wait until it gets there, wait until it gets there," Kasich said on Tuesday following a speaking engagement in Columbus. "I have to see what it is. I'm a Second Amendment fan and I just got to see exactly when the bill gets here and what the heck is in."
They also note that the bill makes it clear that someone legally carrying a concealed weapon cannot also be drinking or already drunk. Violating that rule is a felony and likely would lead to the loss of gun carry privileges, a punishment no lawful gun owner would risk, supporters say.
Supporters also note that concealed carry in bars elsewhere has not conjured up scenes from the "Wild, Wild West." And they note that the measure would not override another state provision that gives any owner of a bar, restaurant, store or stadium the right to post signs stating that firearms are prohibited on their premises.
"The Browns and Cavs already have the ability to post their buildings with no firearms, that's not going to change," said Jim Irvine, of the Buckeye Firearms Association. "The big thing with this bill is get the government out of it. Let the individuals run their businesses the way they want."
Garvas, of Ohioans for Concealed Carry, said cops are acting like hypocrites because the current law allows off-duty police officers to carry concealed in bars and drink alcohol at the same time, especially in private clubs such as police lodges.
"Off-duty police officers can do what they want, yet they are opposed to our bill, which has safeguards built in," Garvas said. "That is very, very hypocritical to me."
Jay McDonald, president of the Ohio Fraternal Order of Police, said it is ridiculous to compare a trained police officer to a regular citizen who happens have a concealed carry permit.
"We are required to meet a much higher level of training and re-training for how to properly handle our weapons and we are trained to know in which situations to shoot and not to shoot," McDonald said. "If they want to require the same level of training for CCW holders as I have to meet as a law enforcement officer, then we will drop our opposition."
Opponents argue the proposed law invites trouble, especially in urban areas where there are higher concentrations of bars and restaurants that draw higher pedestrian traffic and more late-night trouble.
And while the law would prohibit a gun owner from drinking, opponents ask how that provision can be enforced if the firearm is legally concealed on the patron. The only way to know is if the person happens to display or use the firearm, and by then it could be too late, they say.
Finally, they argue that bar owners who oppose the bill would be reluctant to post signs for fear of turning away business.
Sam Hoover, a staff attorney for the Legal Community Against Violence, a San Francisco-based national anti-gun group, said concealed carry laws are growing more permissive across the country and the least states should do is place limits on when and where gun owners can carry concealed.
"Weakening such laws by, among other things, allowing people to possess guns in locations that serve alcohol only makes the public less safe," Hoover said. "Indeed, allowing the open or concealed carry of guns wherever makes the public less safe."
Lawmakers came close to passing a similar bill last year under former Gov. Strickland, who indicated he would sign it into law. The bill cleared the Republican-controlled Senate but died in the Democratic-controlled House.
Both the House and Senate are now controlled by Republicans.
Lawmakers who support the measure argue that Ohio is merely catching up to 42 other states that already allow concealed carry permit holders to tote their firearms in booze-pouring establishments. But that's not the whole story.
No two state laws are the same. Some allow it in restaurants but not bars. Others prohibit guns in stadiums. Some block firearms in nightclubs. Some states have no law addressing the issue at all, making it legal by default. Ohio's proposed statute, meanwhile, would allow concealed firearms everywhere alcohol could be sold and consumed, including shopping malls and museums.
Only four other states have a concealed carry law as sweeping as what has been proposed here, observers say. The proposal has placed Ohio in the crosshairs of a national debate that has moved from state to state as lawmakers try to determine just how far gun rights should extend into the public domain
What has resulted is a mixed bag of agreements across the country juxtaposing the rights of those who wish to carry a gun for self-defense against the rights of those who, for example, wish to dine with their families or take in a ballgame without a firearm legally hidden on the hip of a person one seat over.
"What Ohio wants to do is totally different from what we're seeing elsewhere," said Brian Malte, director of state legislation for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence in Washington.
But gun lobbying groups that helped write the bill said calling it a guns-in-bars proposal is a headline-grabbing catch phrase, but not at all what they ultimately intended.
"Saying that we are trying to authorize guns in bars is a complete misrepresentation," said Jeff Garvas of Ohioans for Concealed Carry. "We didn't go out and write a bill to say we need a bill that allows us to have a gun in bars. The whole purpose is to go to a restaurant which just happens to serve alcohol and not have to leave my gun in the car."
"The reason we can't get away from it is because a liquor license is a liquor license," Garvas said. "I can't differentiate between a restaurant and bar in Ohio."
Indeed, while some states try to stipulate what constitutes a bar compared to a restaurant according to how much the establishment makes in food vs. alcohol sales, Ohio does not.
The Ohio Senate first passed Senate Bill 17. Then the Ohio House approved a similar bill, House Bill 45. According to House Speaker William G. Batchelder, a Medina Republican, lawmakers were expected to move one of the bills this past week but that didn't happen. Lawmakers apparently are working on a compromise, trying to settle on one bill to forward to the governor.
Lawmakers generally do not like to move bills that might get swatted down by the governor and in this case, Gov. John Kasich and his office have given conflicting signals regarding the Republican leader's position.
Batchelder told reporters earlier this month after HB 45 was approved that he spoke to Kasich and was certain the governor would sign the legislation into law. A Kasich spokesman confirmed the governor was likely to sign the proposal. But Kasich himself is non-committal.
"Well, wait until it gets there, wait until it gets there," Kasich said on Tuesday following a speaking engagement in Columbus. "I have to see what it is. I'm a Second Amendment fan and I just got to see exactly when the bill gets here and what the heck is in."
The bill is part of a nationwide strategy by the National Rifle Association to expand concealed carry laws in every state. The NRA didn't consider Kasich a Second Amendment fan when it ripped his gun-rights record in Congress during last year's gubernatorial campaign. And locally, the Buckeye Firearms Association followed the NRA's lead by running ads against Kasich.
The powerful gun lobby's favorable rating and support of former Democratic Gov. Ted Strickland nearly cost Kasich the close election. Now Kasich finds himself being asked to support a bill backed by the gun lobby. If he does, it means turning his back on the Ohio Fraternal Order of Police, and every other major law enforcement group in Ohio, as well as restaurant and bar owner groups who strongly oppose the legislation.
Supporters describe the bill as a personal safety measure, a "use-in-case-of-emergency" tool should they ever find themselves confronted by violence in a bar or restaurant by someone who is illegally carrying a gun. They also note that the bill makes it clear that someone legally carrying a concealed weapon cannot also be drinking or already drunk. Violating that rule is a felony and likely would lead to the loss of gun carry privileges, a punishment no lawful gun owner would risk, supporters say.
Supporters also note that concealed carry in bars elsewhere has not conjured up scenes from the "Wild, Wild West." And they note that the measure would not override another state provision that gives any owner of a bar, restaurant, store or stadium the right to post signs stating that firearms are prohibited on their premises.
"The Browns and Cavs already have the ability to post their buildings with no firearms, that's not going to change," said Jim Irvine, of the Buckeye Firearms Association. "The big thing with this bill is get the government out of it. Let the individuals run their businesses the way they want."
Garvas, of Ohioans for Concealed Carry, said cops are acting like hypocrites because the current law allows off-duty police officers to carry concealed in bars and drink alcohol at the same time, especially in private clubs such as police lodges.
"Off-duty police officers can do what they want, yet they are opposed to our bill, which has safeguards built in," Garvas said. "That is very, very hypocritical to me."
Jay McDonald, president of the Ohio Fraternal Order of Police, said it is ridiculous to compare a trained police officer to a regular citizen who happens have a concealed carry permit.
"We are required to meet a much higher level of training and re-training for how to properly handle our weapons and we are trained to know in which situations to shoot and not to shoot," McDonald said. "If they want to require the same level of training for CCW holders as I have to meet as a law enforcement officer, then we will drop our opposition."
Opponents argue the proposed law invites trouble, especially in urban areas where there are higher concentrations of bars and restaurants that draw higher pedestrian traffic and more late-night trouble.
And while the law would prohibit a gun owner from drinking, opponents ask how that provision can be enforced if the firearm is legally concealed on the patron. The only way to know is if the person happens to display or use the firearm, and by then it could be too late, they say.
Finally, they argue that bar owners who oppose the bill would be reluctant to post signs for fear of turning away business.
"We just don't think alcohol and guns mix," said Richard Mason, of the Ohio Restaurant Association. "We believe the current law is working just fine."
"Weakening such laws by, among other things, allowing people to possess guns in locations that serve alcohol only makes the public less safe," Hoover said. "Indeed, allowing the open or concealed carry of guns wherever makes the public less safe."
Lawmakers came close to passing a similar bill last year under former Gov. Strickland, who indicated he would sign it into law. The bill cleared the Republican-controlled Senate but died in the Democratic-controlled House.
Both the House and Senate are now controlled by Republicans.
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